Women fighting in the war on terrorism

Non Commissioned Officer, Commissioned Officer, Sergeant Major, Warrior, Rifleman. These are all terms that describe Marines and women Marines as well. I took the opportunity to correct a couple gentlemen engaged in a conversation about women fighting in Iraq and around the world these days. 

It may be easy for some over weight draft dodger who never served a day in the US military nor wanted to, to sit their big ass in a chair, with his redneck cap on sipping the cheapest beer at the local bar at night and complain how women aren’t pulling their weight in the military. Well I have some news for you. Besides the fact that you have shown your complete ignorance about what is going on in the events our country is involved in or who is fighting in them, let me take you for a short journey regarding women supporting this country. In the early 40s, Americas manpower and population in the military was dwindling. As noticeable numbers decreased the push to incorporate women into the military was needed.  Almost 400,000 women served in and with the armed forces—a number that exceeded total male troop strength in 1939. Today although the numbers aren’t as drastic as back during WWII, women are fulfilling crucial roles in the military especially in Afghanistan and Iraq. In Afghanistan, women played a vital role in searching female Afghanis to reduce the amount of conflict of it being done by a male Marine. When Marines were attacked in Afghanistan, no one paid any attention if they were men or women wearing the eagle globe and anchor, they all got shot at.

In Iraq, women are no longer “sitting the side lines” as some think like the days of the past. Today women maintain crucial billets during crucial times as they did back in WWII and some have paid the ultimate price.

“STARS AND STRIPES -- Female Marines are being used closer to the front lines during missions in Iraq, in a dramatic change from the regular roles, reports the Stars and Stripes. Women Marines of the 3rd Battalion, 8th Marine Regiment, took part in raids looking for high-value targets”

“Eight female Marines from different units within 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing volunteered for the Lioness Program and will conduct security searches of women crossing into Iraq.”

So now if you hear talk of women not pulling their weight in the war against terrorism, you should ask them who exactly then were the WASPs, WAVs , WACs and the Lioness who made a differenc in our countrys battles. I would bet the first thing they ask you is “What?”

One Team One Fight
Semper Fi
Maj Pain

Comments

[Esoterik]

Roger That Major.

As I sit writing these words, I look over to the couch in my living room and see the peacefully sleeping young lady who after one term at college came home and said, “I am going to become a Marine.”

This young woman who this very day brought tears to my eyes when she stepped into the back door of my home by surprise, (the best Christmas present for this “Daddy” ever), having traveled thousands of miles in secret to be with her family. My little girl, it seems only just yesterday a pig tailed giggle machine, now lean mean and green.

“Why the Marines,” I asked? Her reply, “Because I want to make a difference!”
“Yes,” I said, “But why the Marines?” Her reply, “Because I can not think of anything at this point in my life that would be tougher.”
“Yes,” I said, “Any branch of the military would be tough. Why the Marines!?”
“Because,” she said, “I am convinced that they will give me the same training that they give the men!”

This young warrior, My Marine, who when asked at Boot Camp, Paris Island, where she preferred to be posted at the completion of her training, simply stated, “Iraq or Afghanistan.”
And again, at the end of her School of Infantry Marine Combat Training in response to the same question, “Iraq or Afghanistan.”
Asked once again while at her MOS training at Corey Station, “Where do you want to go after training?” One consistent response, “Iraq or Afghanistan.”

I will not pretend not to be relieved that she at this point, this brave young woman, still remains in The States. She waits patently for the clearance to perform her chosen MOS. But she refuses to get soft. She trains with the hardest men she can get around her and does not fall out of formation. They her best big brothers, she, the best big sister they could ever hope to have. And not content to be idle while awaiting her clearance, she took on a secondary MOS and completed her Security Force Training. “If I can guard a base here, I can certainly guard a base in Iraq or Afghanistan.”

Is there a pattern there somewhere?

And so I look over her now. This young warrior sleeping with the look of innocence on her face. Where will she be this time next year? In the Tunnel? Or part of a field unit in Iraq or Afghanistan? All I know is that I have her with me now by Gods good grace for just a matter of days, and I will cherish every moment.

And Major, glad that it was you not I correcting the Gentleman you speak of. Had it been me, heads would have been hitting the floor faster then Parris Hilton’s panties.

[K. Harneck]

As a woman myself, and one who once thought of joining the Corps, I thank you for writing this post. I am engaged to an ex-Marine and OIF Veteran and I often find myself kicking myself for not doing what wanted to. My excuse was that art school was calling me (After high school, I went to the College for Creative Studies in Detroit as an Illustration major).

Yet, now I can thank myself for not enlisting. Yes, I would have made a difference and I know that I would be giving myself a reason and a purpose, but by not going, I was given a Marine who needed me. After he came home, he leaned on me and I listened and hugged and kept thinking - he would have done the same if the roles were switched - if I was the Marine.

It makes me even more proud to be an American to know that not only do I support the men who keep me safe, but the women as well.

[Big White Hat]

Hot chicks with firearms and attitudes! That'll make you love the marine corps.

[W]

Well, I guess I'll be the party-pooper. There's no way I make the following comments without looking like a jerk, but, oh well.

I was reading the post regarding WMs and the thought that came to mind was that this was a fight looking for an argument. So far, I enjoy the blog and look forward to reading more, but this entry struck me as passe'. Women have served honorably in our armed forces for a long time; that's never been in question. The issue, however, is women serving in "line" units rather than support units. Yes, life is a 360 degree impact zone and in the age of asymmetrical warfare anyone in uniform, regardless of their billet, must be prepared for combat, but that's a long way from what I think is your real topic/argument of women in line units. Women in combat versus women in combat units, e.g. infantry, are two distinct arguments.

As a former 0311, Desert Storm veteran, and platoon sergeant I have serious doubts about the concept of mixing the sexes. Yes, a women can pull a trigger on a rifle and pull a pin on a grenade, but to suggest that that is all is required in combat is ignorant. There is more to infantry life than qualifying at the range. The arguments are well known for and against women in infantry rolls, so I won't belabor the point. Suffice to say, I am not convinced that women should be in line units. Sorry, I'm a dinosaur.

I have nothing but respect and gratitude to the men AND women serving our nation and fighting our enemies. I'm not for keeping women out of the military. I'm simply making the point that we all (men & women) have different skills and talents and should apply them accordingly. In that same spirit, we should not kid ourselves into thinking that we are all the same and that there is no difference between the sexes; differences that do have an impact on both the men and women in a line unit.

I have no doubt that in our current operations in the Mid-East that it is a smart practice to have women on hand when segregating men from women in raids. I also like the idea of using women in intelligence/interrogation operations when appropriate.

Please don't mistake this post as anti-women; I LOVE women. In fact, my mom is a woman, my sister is a woman, and I even married one! My wife is probably the toughest woman I have ever known. Seriously, my wife studies martial arts with me, will spar with other men, train in knife fighting and shoot competitively/tactically with me. Bottom line, my wife can hold her own. That does not, however, make her an infantryman.

Merry Christmas and thank you for the opportunity to post my opinion. I look forward to more thought provoking discussions.

Semper Fi,
W

[Esoterik]

Well W-

I am not sure exactly what “differences” between men and women you see that disqualifies women from adequately serving in “line units” as you do not define them, not even vaguely. So… you won’t see any argument from me as you haven’t really presented one yourself.

I would submit the following points:
Being a fairly conservative traditionalist myself, I would likely from an instinctive standpoint tend to agree with you. However, I have found quite often that I am agreeably surprised when I subdue instinctive prejudice.
If we were talking about a “conventional war,” the structure of which supports the concept of true “line units” deployed in the field in a traditionally conventional sense, then there are simple logistical and cultural issues which would tend not to make “mixed sex units” ideal. However, we are engaged in an insurgency. There is no “front line” and therefore no true “line units.” Where ever there is a Marine or Soldier is the line. So to argue the point is futile.
Now, there is what I would characterize as “tip of the spear, or hunter seeker units.” And in this engagement, there is a need for the presents or at least the immediate access to the presents of women to such units, as you yourself acceded to the wisdom of.
If we take a look at history we will run headlong into events which refute any negation of the potential effectiveness of women in combat. In the defense of Stalingrad, a battle which could arguably be said to have broken the back of Germany’s Eastern Army, there was a high proportion of women serving as line troops. Of course Stalin didn’t care who, what or how many he threw into that meet grinder, but that is not the issue. There didn’t seem to be any insurmountable problems with women in the line for the Soviets, nor any indication of women being of any less value.

[Karen I.]

I'm sure I'd rather have Esoterik's daughter protecting me than many men I can think of. If more men happen to qualify, so be it. But opportunities should not be denied to the women who qualify though they may be fewer in number.The women who make it may have better fortitude because they had to try harder to qualify as men have grown up with rougher sports teams to be on in school such as wrestling and football as a matter of course and there are more dads that take their boys hunting than girls though that has been changing.
Major, thankyou for the link to the Women Marines I referred to in a different post.I had been thinking about them again and it helped to further refresh my memory to think of these female heros.It was truly kind of you to think of them on a very special day in your life.
As I think of the burn victims and others wounded in battle a thought popped into my head in the form of a quote:
"Battle scars are beauty marks."

[W]

Esoterik,

My apologies for not clarifying what I believed to be the obvious differences between the sexes: physiology.

Let's not confuse what we wish things were with we wish they were. This may come as a shock, but men and women are physically different. I know, I know, in this world of androgynous attitudes and feminism women can do anything men can do....NOT!

I am not trying to sound condescending, but how do you not see the differences?! I think I made my point quite clear without going in to the daily routine of an infantryman. It is a back-breaking grind that is best performed by a man between the ages of 17 to 35. I have yet to see the "average" woman that can perform the physical tasks required of combat operations that an average man can perform. I won't continue because I think it is obvious. Then, we have some serious "social" issues to consider when putting women in line (infantry) units. If a fellow Marine and his wife become pregnant, he can still perform his job. If a woman in an infantry unit becomes pregnant she's gone, period, end of story. Now that platoon has to refill that position. This is a complete hornet's nest of issues that I will let you ponder on your own.

With regards to other nations using women in combat units I say this; necessity. The Soviets used women in WWII predominately as snipers, not infantry grunts. The Israelis have used women in combat units but it is my understanding that those units were disbanded due to the failure of the "experiment". Yes, the Israeli women are in the thick of it (like our women in Iraq/Afghanistan), but I don't believe they are in any infantry units. There is absolutely NO need for the US to integrate women into line units like infantry. When the Mexican and Canadian armies invade the U.S. and survival of the nation is in question, well, I'll probably change my mind. Until that time, however, I see no need for women in combat units. Now, that being said, I want our American women to receive the best possible combat training because I know that they run a serious risk of the combat coming to them, regardless of U.S. policy.

Please understand that I, too, am conservative in my politics, but don't confuse the issue. This is not a conservative versus liberal argument. I believe that this needs to be based upon FACTS. I simply refuse to "buy" the women can do anything men can do argument. This is an agenda driven issue so that women can succeed in their military careers; nothing more, nothing less.

Sorry, life, like combat, is not fair.

To your point about the war's non-conventional manner I say "nonsense". Our troops are running combat operations every day. Yes, there is an insurgency and yes, American women get caught in battles and ambushes in the performance of their daily jobs (supply/MPs/motor transport/M.I., etc), but they are NOT charging out of the back of an AMTRACK or Stryker fighting vehicle. But never forget this, when you are in close-quarters, individual combat that THAT is the front line. Do you deliberately want to put women in this position?

To be honest, and, again, I'm not trying to pick a fight, but most of the people pushing this issue have not lived a grunt's life. It can be a cast-iron bitch!

Final point; I'm not against women in the military, but I am against endangering the troops (men & women) so that media/feminist/political "elites" stateside can have their feel-good moment.

Again, I enjoy and welcome friendly, spirited debate. I hope you enjoy it in the spirit of two people with a common goal of victory, and their nation's best interests at heart.

Esoterik, I hope you and yours have a safe and blessed Christmas!

Semper Fi!

[big bro jim i]

KAREN I
I'M WITH YOU, I JUST RECENTLY FOUND OUT MY GRAND DAUGHTER WAS EXCEPTED INTO THE AIR FORCE.NOT A DISAPOINTMENT ON MY END,SERVING YOUR COUNTRY IN ANY BRANCH IS PROOF TO ME THAT YOUR NOT TIED TO MOMMIES APRON STRINGS. MY SON HARLEY WENT INTO THE AIR FORCE AS ENLISTED, REENLISTED GOT A DEGREE AND THEY SENT HIM TO O.C.S, HE JUST MADE CAPTAIN.
WOMEN IN THE SERVICE,I'M AFFAID TO PAT THEM ON THE BACK,I MIGHT GET CARRIED AWAY AND PAT THEM TOO HARD AND MAYBE JUST MAYBE HURT THEM.
WOMEN AND K-9S OUR HIDDEN HEROES
SEE YOU AT 2300 HRS

[Karen I]

Congrats to your granddaughter and your son, Big Bro Jim I.I'll be thinking of them too whenever I salute the troops with you and the others.

[Esoterik]

OK W,

I read you loud and clear. And I will dance with you on some of these points, just not now. I have my Marine for just a few precious days, I am on the bright side of 2 Fog Cutters and I mix 'em strong, so I am not a sharp as I could be.

I will tell you this though, we are not too far apart in our views, I think yours could use a little tweaking though - LOL

We will continue this latter. God Bless you and have a wonderful Christmas yourself.

[concretebob]

Well, this looks like a good intro point for this little bit of news.
My fellow Protest Warrior, and contributor to our blog, Swampy, has signed the paper and been sworn in as a United States Marine. She leaves for PI on 4 June.
She could be anything she wants. She's worked at the Leadership Insitute, and at the Claire Boothe Luce Institute for Policy Development. But her heart is set on becoming a United States Marine.
Swampy is known to many of my fellow Freepers and PW's as the young lady who brought all the college kids out to Walter Reed on Friday nights. She also gave me her seat at an Ann Coulter lecture at George Washington University. (Second row). She has been on the street with us, in the rain, in the cold, countering the moonbats and anti-military asshats, and supporting our military.
I'm honored to call her a friend and humbled by her dedication to our country.
SEMPER FIDELIS

[Karen I]

I congratulate her and am very proud of her. Thank you for what you do, too, and telling us about her.

[JAS]

Both of my parents served in WWII. My father (now deceased) was a naval officer. My mother, now 86 years old and still as sharp as a tack, bless her, served as a commissioned officer in the US Army. Her entire class nursing class at U of Maryland volunteered the day after Pearl Harbor.

Her unit not only served in the South Pacific, they then went on to Japan to take care of the casualties from the Bombs.

To answer the prevailing myth that women serving in the forces didn't pull their weight even back then - ask the Marines, airmen, sailors and soldiers whose lives were saved by these hard-working Army nurses. These women didn't pat sweat from heads with a starched linen hankie! They saved lives, with equipment that was primitive, under appalling conditions and frequently at great danger to themselves.

Many of her classmates and friends paid the ultimate price. Less than a dozen of my mother's original class survived unscathed. Some were even beheaded by Japanese troops while trying to assist American troops.

These women weren't feminists.

They were patriots, who responded to the call of service and served, served nobly and well.

I can tell you that I have nothing but admiration for my mother and I'm so very proud that my mother wore Army boots!

JAS

[Karen I.]

Thank God for Army nurses thoughout history. I guess I don't see why some men don't get it.Thank your mother for her service from me and I am proud of her too. Have a blessed holiday season.

[big bro jim i]

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL OF YOU.
SEE YOU AT 2300 HRS. THE SMOKING LAMP WILL BE LIT, AND DONT BE AFFAID TO HOIST ONE UP.

[wade]

women are still woman marines, i cant recall any of them joining me on a forty mile hump.

[wade]

quesion mark after woman marine.

[Major Mom]

Hooah to all the Women that serve.
To the Gent that doesn't think women should be in combat- have you ever birthed a child- been a single working parent- walked the street at night to find your child and bring them home from an undesireable situation- made too little money go too far- were so tired you swore you couldn't walk one more step and then cleaned house, did laundry, made lunches and mades sure all were safely in before you finally fell into bed for 5 precious hours sleep only to begin all over again.
After you do this for multipe years tell me that women aren't battle hardened vets!!! They take these qualities to war with them!!!!
There isn't a one who would hesitate to lay down their life for a fellow service member.
I am a Service Woman and can kick the crap out of you, minister to your wounds or hold your hand with compassion until you die

[big bro jim i]

MAJOR MOM ,
MILITARY WIVES ARE PULLING DOUBLE DUTY WHILE HUBBY IS DEPLOYED, YES TAKING THE KIDS TO DAY CARE ,CLEANING THE HOUSE,WALKING THE DOGS,.AND WEEK ENDS FORGET IT. ITS SOCCER,TEE-BALL, BALLET CLASSES, WORRING ABOUT THE NEXT OIL CHANGE, OR TUNE UP FOR YOUR MEANS OF TRANSPORTATIOM
I HAVE JUST AS MUCH OR MORE RESPECT FOR A MILITARY WIFE AS I DO HER SPOUSE SERVING OUR GREAT COUNTRY.AND YOU CAN TAKE THAT TO THE BANK. NO B/S ON THIS END .

[Karen I.]

Major Mom, I agree with you whole-heartedly. Thank you for your service, and Happy Holidays.

[Diana]

I'd like to weigh in on this post and say "Thank You!" Maj. Pain. I am a 41 year old woman who realized this summer that my chance to serve had not passed me by. I have been a wife. I am a mother. I have had a 16 year career as an elementary school teacher. My only regret in life had been missing the chance to serve my Country. When the age limit was raised, I thought about joining up, but dismissed the idea as a mid-life crisis. Several months later the notion has gelled. I am joining the Army. The young man who will be my recruiter next month, admirably did not lose his military bearing when faced with an overweight, 41 year old asking for information, no, not for her son, but for herself. LOL He also, with a straight face, told me I could apply to be an Apache driver after I told him that's what I really wanted to do. Good kid...well trained. If the Marines took old farts like me, I'd have to go for it. Wish me luck, and I'll let you know how it goes!!! Merry Christmas!

[Karen I.]

Diana, I wish you alot of luck and can't wait to hear how it goes-either way.I'm proud of you for "showing up".Best wishes.

[Esoterik]

Diana,
You might want to pop over to A Soldiers Perspective, and pay close attention to the posts of "White Rose." She is near the end of her recruitment experience. The stories that she relates would be of value to you.

http://soldiersperspective.us//

[Esoterik]

Well Wade –
I’ll just present this exchange of E-mails for your review:

From: Eber*****, B*** H Capt
Sent: Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006
To: HSOC_Marines
Subject: Hike

I would like to congratulate those Marines who had the intestinal fortitude to continue on and complete the hike: MSgt R, SSgt Wo, SSgt Wi, SSgt M, Sgt R, Sgt K, Sgt T, Cpl Cl, Cpl Ca, Cpl K, LCpl Ba, LCpl Br, LCpl U, LCpl W, LCpl V and PFC D. You knew it would not be easy yet you continued to press on and finish what you started. You did not take the easy option of quitting in adversity but yet pushed yourself to your limit and beyond. It was not an easy hike and you should be proud of what you accomplished.
For those Marines who took option B, quitting. I understand that a few of you could not go on but for the majority of you I am not sure what your excuse is. I heard a large range of reasons; my ride is leaving, it is not safe, was there a ORM worksheet done. I want to file a complaint, I’m not a nature person, this sucks. Last time I checked we are all United States Marines and those reasons do not cut it. I am a very easygoing mellow guy who rarely gets upset. I have to say without a doubt this is the most disappointed I have been with Marines in my 5 year career. The purpose of this hike was to challenge yourselves and build camaraderie with your fellow Marines. The last thing I expected was to see more the half of the Marines to turn around and quit. Not only did you turn around but also I heard that some of you wanted to file a compliant. If you feel like you really need to, request Mast. GySgt C, SSgt W, SSgt G, and I completed this hike three weeks ago. We did an ORM worksheet and all came to the conclusion that the hike would be a gut check but most all of the Marines could finish.
The hike showed me what Marines in this company were made of. I thought I knew most of you pretty well but as it turns out I didn’t. You were on a hike in Hawaii with your fellow Marines. You were not at work. You were not TAD, and biggest of all you were not in Iraq. You were complaining about a little adversity on your day off. What will you do when you are in Iraq and the same situation presents itself? Are you going to run to the Platoon Sergeant and let him know that you don’t think the situation is safe and you would like to file a complaint? Please do and let me know what he says. Yesterday was a test and to me most of you not only failed me but you failed yourself. You want to lead Marines and have more responsibility but from what I saw yesterday I would not want to have most of you in Iraq with me. For those whose time is coming up to re-enlist you seriously need to think if you have what it takes to be a Marine. And for those who just re-enlisted or have a few years left you need to take a hare look at yourself and make some changes or else you will fall short of what a United States Marine is.

Captain Eber*****

===============================

From: De***, Aly**
Sent: Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006
To: Eber*****, B*** H Capt
Subject: Hike

Cpt Eber*****

I just wanted to thank you for giving me the opportunity to finish the hike with you and my fellow Marines. To be completely honest, I had no intention on going on the hike in the first place because I had worked Sunday night and was getting off just as the company was forming up to go. I’m so glad I changed my mind. Once we got the half way point I knew it just wouldn’t be right to stop there, plus SSgt W told me I would “puss out,” so of course I had to prove him wrong. I thought the best part was on one of the last resting spots, where we had all crammed in one little circle and you were standing there feeding us Gummy Bears and Jolly Ranchers. I felt proud and grateful to be part of that. It’s such a great experience to look back, especially when I don’t get to work with Marines everyday. Thank you again.

PFC De***

===============================

From: Eber*****, B*** H Capt
Sent: Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006
To: De***, Aly**
Subject: Hike

Thanks for taking the time to say that, it means a lot. I had begun to lose faith in the Marines but by you saying this it has made my day.
You should feel proud, you accomplished what more than 80% of your fellow Marines could not and I was happy to see that you choose to go on. You set an example for other Marines to follow. I was proud to have you make it.

Cpt Eber*****

===============================

Now Wade, just where does that fit in with your “women are still women marines” flatulence?

By my read that is 1 Captain, 5 Sergeants, 3 Corporals, 5 Lance Corporals and 1 PFC, apparently 20% of what ever portion of this Company started out on what apparently was a fairly arduous “hump” that completed it. An 80% fallout from apparent “leadership candidates.” And who was the PFC proud to have had the opportunity to participate in and complete this exercise? My daughter, a Marine, not a “woman marine.” A Marine who had just come off of a 12 hour watch. A Marine that not only has to overcome what every other Marine is supposed to overcome, but who additionally has to put up with and overcome attitudes like yours.

[W]

Wow! Are there some thin-skins out there or what?!?!

I'll focus my reply with regards to the comments of "Major Mom". Where did ANYONE in this post say that women should not serve? Where did I, or anyone else, denigrate the contribution or service of our women in the U.S. Armed Forces? I truly hope that much of the comments directed at those of us who don't subscribe to unnecessarily placing women in direct combat roles, i.e., infantry, are good-natured in spirit. If they are not, you are way off base.

Obviously, I have never given birth to a child since I am a man. And no, I have not wandered the streets late a night looking for a child to bring home; which begs the question, what the hell are they out at night for to begin with?! Sorry for your marital and financial hardships; being a single parent is a tough job and I wish you and your children the best.

That's where my sympathy ends because for you to compare child rearing to infantry life and combat is ridiculous. I'll say it, a mother who has raised children is NOT a "battle-hardened vet". If you seriously think that the two endeavors are similar you are truly diluted.

Why on earth would you "call me out" and say you can kick my ass. As my father used to say, "Smile when you say that so I know that you are kidding". If you are a Major (O4) in the U.S. military you show remarkably poor judgement. Either you are 15 years old or are incredibly impressed with yourself. Again, if I have taken your comments out of context I apologize. Perhaps it is I who has the thin skin. If I have properly interpreted your meaning, well, you need to pull some maintenance on your headgear.

One more thing; to all of you who duck the issue with examples of women who were at or near the front lines in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc,. I never said that women should not be able to serve. My point has always been focused on the argument of making the conscious decision to place women in line units like infantry. Again, I never denigrated the valuable service of American women throughout our history; don't confuse the issue.

Man! I hope I didn't get sucked into a playground fight with a girl! :)

Happy New year, Major.

Semper Fi
W