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December 23, 2006

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Esoterik

Roger That Major.

As I sit writing these words, I look over to the couch in my living room and see the peacefully sleeping young lady who after one term at college came home and said, “I am going to become a Marine.”

This young woman who this very day brought tears to my eyes when she stepped into the back door of my home by surprise, (the best Christmas present for this “Daddy” ever), having traveled thousands of miles in secret to be with her family. My little girl, it seems only just yesterday a pig tailed giggle machine, now lean mean and green.

“Why the Marines,” I asked? Her reply, “Because I want to make a difference!”
“Yes,” I said, “But why the Marines?” Her reply, “Because I can not think of anything at this point in my life that would be tougher.”
“Yes,” I said, “Any branch of the military would be tough. Why the Marines!?”
“Because,” she said, “I am convinced that they will give me the same training that they give the men!”

This young warrior, My Marine, who when asked at Boot Camp, Paris Island, where she preferred to be posted at the completion of her training, simply stated, “Iraq or Afghanistan.”
And again, at the end of her School of Infantry Marine Combat Training in response to the same question, “Iraq or Afghanistan.”
Asked once again while at her MOS training at Corey Station, “Where do you want to go after training?” One consistent response, “Iraq or Afghanistan.”

I will not pretend not to be relieved that she at this point, this brave young woman, still remains in The States. She waits patently for the clearance to perform her chosen MOS. But she refuses to get soft. She trains with the hardest men she can get around her and does not fall out of formation. They her best big brothers, she, the best big sister they could ever hope to have. And not content to be idle while awaiting her clearance, she took on a secondary MOS and completed her Security Force Training. “If I can guard a base here, I can certainly guard a base in Iraq or Afghanistan.”

Is there a pattern there somewhere?

And so I look over her now. This young warrior sleeping with the look of innocence on her face. Where will she be this time next year? In the Tunnel? Or part of a field unit in Iraq or Afghanistan? All I know is that I have her with me now by Gods good grace for just a matter of days, and I will cherish every moment.

And Major, glad that it was you not I correcting the Gentleman you speak of. Had it been me, heads would have been hitting the floor faster then Parris Hilton’s panties.

K. Harneck

As a woman myself, and one who once thought of joining the Corps, I thank you for writing this post. I am engaged to an ex-Marine and OIF Veteran and I often find myself kicking myself for not doing what wanted to. My excuse was that art school was calling me (After high school, I went to the College for Creative Studies in Detroit as an Illustration major).

Yet, now I can thank myself for not enlisting. Yes, I would have made a difference and I know that I would be giving myself a reason and a purpose, but by not going, I was given a Marine who needed me. After he came home, he leaned on me and I listened and hugged and kept thinking - he would have done the same if the roles were switched - if I was the Marine.

It makes me even more proud to be an American to know that not only do I support the men who keep me safe, but the women as well.

Big White Hat

Hot chicks with firearms and attitudes! That'll make you love the marine corps.

W

Well, I guess I'll be the party-pooper. There's no way I make the following comments without looking like a jerk, but, oh well.

I was reading the post regarding WMs and the thought that came to mind was that this was a fight looking for an argument. So far, I enjoy the blog and look forward to reading more, but this entry struck me as passe'. Women have served honorably in our armed forces for a long time; that's never been in question. The issue, however, is women serving in "line" units rather than support units. Yes, life is a 360 degree impact zone and in the age of asymmetrical warfare anyone in uniform, regardless of their billet, must be prepared for combat, but that's a long way from what I think is your real topic/argument of women in line units. Women in combat versus women in combat units, e.g. infantry, are two distinct arguments.

As a former 0311, Desert Storm veteran, and platoon sergeant I have serious doubts about the concept of mixing the sexes. Yes, a women can pull a trigger on a rifle and pull a pin on a grenade, but to suggest that that is all is required in combat is ignorant. There is more to infantry life than qualifying at the range. The arguments are well known for and against women in infantry rolls, so I won't belabor the point. Suffice to say, I am not convinced that women should be in line units. Sorry, I'm a dinosaur.

I have nothing but respect and gratitude to the men AND women serving our nation and fighting our enemies. I'm not for keeping women out of the military. I'm simply making the point that we all (men & women) have different skills and talents and should apply them accordingly. In that same spirit, we should not kid ourselves into thinking that we are all the same and that there is no difference between the sexes; differences that do have an impact on both the men and women in a line unit.

I have no doubt that in our current operations in the Mid-East that it is a smart practice to have women on hand when segregating men from women in raids. I also like the idea of using women in intelligence/interrogation operations when appropriate.

Please don't mistake this post as anti-women; I LOVE women. In fact, my mom is a woman, my sister is a woman, and I even married one! My wife is probably the toughest woman I have ever known. Seriously, my wife studies martial arts with me, will spar with other men, train in knife fighting and shoot competitively/tactically with me. Bottom line, my wife can hold her own. That does not, however, make her an infantryman.

Merry Christmas and thank you for the opportunity to post my opinion. I look forward to more thought provoking discussions.


Semper Fi,
W

Esoterik

Well W-

I am not sure exactly what “differences” between men and women you see that disqualifies women from adequately serving in “line units” as you do not define them, not even vaguely. So… you won’t see any argument from me as you haven’t really presented one yourself.

I would submit the following points:
Being a fairly conservative traditionalist myself, I would likely from an instinctive standpoint tend to agree with you. However, I have found quite often that I am agreeably surprised when I subdue instinctive prejudice.
If we were talking about a “conventional war,” the structure of which supports the concept of true “line units” deployed in the field in a traditionally conventional sense, then there are simple logistical and cultural issues which would tend not to make “mixed sex units” ideal. However, we are engaged in an insurgency. There is no “front line” and therefore no true “line units.” Where ever there is a Marine or Soldier is the line. So to argue the point is futile.
Now, there is what I would characterize as “tip of the spear, or hunter seeker units.” And in this engagement, there is a need for the presents or at least the immediate access to the presents of women to such units, as you yourself acceded to the wisdom of.
If we take a look at history we will run headlong into events which refute any negation of the potential effectiveness of women in combat. In the defense of Stalingrad, a battle which could arguably be said to have broken the back of Germany’s Eastern Army, there was a high proportion of women serving as line troops. Of course Stalin didn’t care who, what or how many he threw into that meet grinder, but that is not the issue. There didn’t seem to be any insurmountable problems with women in the line for the Soviets, nor any indication of women being of any less value.

Karen I.

I'm sure I'd rather have Esoterik's daughter protecting me than many men I can think of. If more men happen to qualify, so be it. But opportunities should not be denied to the women who qualify though they may be fewer in number.The women who make it may have better fortitude because they had to try harder to qualify as men have grown up with rougher sports teams to be on in school such as wrestling and football as a matter of course and there are more dads that take their boys hunting than girls though that has been changing.
Major, thankyou for the link to the Women Marines I referred to in a different post.I had been thinking about them again and it helped to further refresh my memory to think of these female heros.It was truly kind of you to think of them on a very special day in your life.
As I think of the burn victims and others wounded in battle a thought popped into my head in the form of a quote:
"Battle scars are beauty marks."

W

Esoterik,

My apologies for not clarifying what I believed to be the obvious differences between the sexes: physiology.

Let's not confuse what we wish things were with we wish they were. This may come as a shock, but men and women are physically different. I know, I know, in this world of androgynous attitudes and feminism women can do anything men can do....NOT!

I am not trying to sound condescending, but how do you not see the differences?! I think I made my point quite clear without going in to the daily routine of an infantryman. It is a back-breaking grind that is best performed by a man between the ages of 17 to 35. I have yet to see the "average" woman that can perform the physical tasks required of combat operations that an average man can perform. I won't continue because I think it is obvious. Then, we have some serious "social" issues to consider when putting women in line (infantry) units. If a fellow Marine and his wife become pregnant, he can still perform his job. If a woman in an infantry unit becomes pregnant she's gone, period, end of story. Now that platoon has to refill that position. This is a complete hornet's nest of issues that I will let you ponder on your own.

With regards to other nations using women in combat units I say this; necessity. The Soviets used women in WWII predominately as snipers, not infantry grunts. The Israelis have used women in combat units but it is my understanding that those units were disbanded due to the failure of the "experiment". Yes, the Israeli women are in the thick of it (like our women in Iraq/Afghanistan), but I don't believe they are in any infantry units. There is absolutely NO need for the US to integrate women into line units like infantry. When the Mexican and Canadian armies invade the U.S. and survival of the nation is in question, well, I'll probably change my mind. Until that time, however, I see no need for women in combat units. Now, that being said, I want our American women to receive the best possible combat training because I know that they run a serious risk of the combat coming to them, regardless of U.S. policy.

Please understand that I, too, am conservative in my politics, but don't confuse the issue. This is not a conservative versus liberal argument. I believe that this needs to be based upon FACTS. I simply refuse to "buy" the women can do anything men can do argument. This is an agenda driven issue so that women can succeed in their military careers; nothing more, nothing less.

Sorry, life, like combat, is not fair.

To your point about the war's non-conventional manner I say "nonsense". Our troops are running combat operations every day. Yes, there is an insurgency and yes, American women get caught in battles and ambushes in the performance of their daily jobs (supply/MPs/motor transport/M.I., etc), but they are NOT charging out of the back of an AMTRACK or Stryker fighting vehicle. But never forget this, when you are in close-quarters, individual combat that THAT is the front line. Do you deliberately want to put women in this position?

To be honest, and, again, I'm not trying to pick a fight, but most of the people pushing this issue have not lived a grunt's life. It can be a cast-iron bitch!

Final point; I'm not against women in the military, but I am against endangering the troops (men & women) so that media/feminist/political "elites" stateside can have their feel-good moment.

Again, I enjoy and welcome friendly, spirited debate. I hope you enjoy it in the spirit of two people with a common goal of victory, and their nation's best interests at heart.

Esoterik, I hope you and yours have a safe and blessed Christmas!

Semper Fi!

big bro jim i

KAREN I
I'M WITH YOU, I JUST RECENTLY FOUND OUT MY GRAND DAUGHTER WAS EXCEPTED INTO THE AIR FORCE.NOT A DISAPOINTMENT ON MY END,SERVING YOUR COUNTRY IN ANY BRANCH IS PROOF TO ME THAT YOUR NOT TIED TO MOMMIES APRON STRINGS. MY SON HARLEY WENT INTO THE AIR FORCE AS ENLISTED, REENLISTED GOT A DEGREE AND THEY SENT HIM TO O.C.S, HE JUST MADE CAPTAIN.
WOMEN IN THE SERVICE,I'M AFFAID TO PAT THEM ON THE BACK,I MIGHT GET CARRIED AWAY AND PAT THEM TOO HARD AND MAYBE JUST MAYBE HURT THEM.
WOMEN AND K-9S OUR HIDDEN HEROES
SEE YOU AT 2300 HRS

Karen I

Congrats to your granddaughter and your son, Big Bro Jim I.I'll be thinking of them too whenever I salute the troops with you and the others.

Esoterik

OK W,

I read you loud and clear. And I will dance with you on some of these points, just not now. I have my Marine for just a few precious days, I am on the bright side of 2 Fog Cutters and I mix 'em strong, so I am not a sharp as I could be.

I will tell you this though, we are not too far apart in our views, I think yours could use a little tweaking though - LOL

We will continue this latter. God Bless you and have a wonderful Christmas yourself.

concretebob

Well, this looks like a good intro point for this little bit of news.
My fellow Protest Warrior, and contributor to our blog, Swampy, has signed the paper and been sworn in as a United States Marine. She leaves for PI on 4 June.
She could be anything she wants. She's worked at the Leadership Insitute, and at the Claire Boothe Luce Institute for Policy Development. But her heart is set on becoming a United States Marine.
Swampy is known to many of my fellow Freepers and PW's as the young lady who brought all the college kids out to Walter Reed on Friday nights. She also gave me her seat at an Ann Coulter lecture at George Washington University. (Second row). She has been on the street with us, in the rain, in the cold, countering the moonbats and anti-military asshats, and supporting our military.
I'm honored to call her a friend and humbled by her dedication to our country.
SEMPER FIDELIS

Karen I

I congratulate her and am very proud of her. Thank you for what you do, too, and telling us about her.

JAS

Both of my parents served in WWII. My father (now deceased) was a naval officer. My mother, now 86 years old and still as sharp as a tack, bless her, served as a commissioned officer in the US Army. Her entire class nursing class at U of Maryland volunteered the day after Pearl Harbor.

Her unit not only served in the South Pacific, they then went on to Japan to take care of the casualties from the Bombs.

To answer the prevailing myth that women serving in the forces didn't pull their weight even back then - ask the Marines, airmen, sailors and soldiers whose lives were saved by these hard-working Army nurses. These women didn't pat sweat from heads with a starched linen hankie! They saved lives, with equipment that was primitive, under appalling conditions and frequently at great danger to themselves.

Many of her classmates and friends paid the ultimate price. Less than a dozen of my mother's original class survived unscathed. Some were even beheaded by Japanese troops while trying to assist American troops.

These women weren't feminists.

They were patriots, who responded to the call of service and served, served nobly and well.

I can tell you that I have nothing but admiration for my mother and I'm so very proud that my mother wore Army boots!

JAS

Karen I.

Thank God for Army nurses thoughout history. I guess I don't see why some men don't get it.Thank your mother for her service from me and I am proud of her too. Have a blessed holiday season.

big bro jim i

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL OF YOU.
SEE YOU AT 2300 HRS. THE SMOKING LAMP WILL BE LIT, AND DONT BE AFFAID TO HOIST ONE UP.

wade

women are still woman marines, i cant recall any of them joining me on a forty mile hump.

wade

quesion mark after woman marine.

Major Mom

Hooah to all the Women that serve.
To the Gent that doesn't think women should be in combat- have you ever birthed a child- been a single working parent- walked the street at night to find your child and bring them home from an undesireable situation- made too little money go too far- were so tired you swore you couldn't walk one more step and then cleaned house, did laundry, made lunches and mades sure all were safely in before you finally fell into bed for 5 precious hours sleep only to begin all over again.
After you do this for multipe years tell me that women aren't battle hardened vets!!! They take these qualities to war with them!!!!
There isn't a one who would hesitate to lay down their life for a fellow service member.
I am a Service Woman and can kick the crap out of you, minister to your wounds or hold your hand with compassion until you die

big bro jim i

MAJOR MOM ,
MILITARY WIVES ARE PULLING DOUBLE DUTY WHILE HUBBY IS DEPLOYED, YES TAKING THE KIDS TO DAY CARE ,CLEANING THE HOUSE,WALKING THE DOGS,.AND WEEK ENDS FORGET IT. ITS SOCCER,TEE-BALL, BALLET CLASSES, WORRING ABOUT THE NEXT OIL CHANGE, OR TUNE UP FOR YOUR MEANS OF TRANSPORTATIOM
I HAVE JUST AS MUCH OR MORE RESPECT FOR A MILITARY WIFE AS I DO HER SPOUSE SERVING OUR GREAT COUNTRY.AND YOU CAN TAKE THAT TO THE BANK. NO B/S ON THIS END .

Karen I.

Major Mom, I agree with you whole-heartedly. Thank you for your service, and Happy Holidays.

Diana

I'd like to weigh in on this post and say "Thank You!" Maj. Pain. I am a 41 year old woman who realized this summer that my chance to serve had not passed me by. I have been a wife. I am a mother. I have had a 16 year career as an elementary school teacher. My only regret in life had been missing the chance to serve my Country. When the age limit was raised, I thought about joining up, but dismissed the idea as a mid-life crisis. Several months later the notion has gelled. I am joining the Army. The young man who will be my recruiter next month, admirably did not lose his military bearing when faced with an overweight, 41 year old asking for information, no, not for her son, but for herself. LOL He also, with a straight face, told me I could apply to be an Apache driver after I told him that's what I really wanted to do. Good kid...well trained. If the Marines took old farts like me, I'd have to go for it. Wish me luck, and I'll let you know how it goes!!! Merry Christmas!

Karen I.

Diana, I wish you alot of luck and can't wait to hear how it goes-either way.I'm proud of you for "showing up".Best wishes.

Esoterik

Diana,
You might want to pop over to A Soldiers Perspective, and pay close attention to the posts of "White Rose." She is near the end of her recruitment experience. The stories that she relates would be of value to you.

http://soldiersperspective.us//

Esoterik

Well Wade –
I’ll just present this exchange of E-mails for your review:

From: Eber*****, B*** H Capt
Sent: Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006
To: HSOC_Marines
Subject: Hike

I would like to congratulate those Marines who had the intestinal fortitude to continue on and complete the hike: MSgt R, SSgt Wo, SSgt Wi, SSgt M, Sgt R, Sgt K, Sgt T, Cpl Cl, Cpl Ca, Cpl K, LCpl Ba, LCpl Br, LCpl U, LCpl W, LCpl V and PFC D. You knew it would not be easy yet you continued to press on and finish what you started. You did not take the easy option of quitting in adversity but yet pushed yourself to your limit and beyond. It was not an easy hike and you should be proud of what you accomplished.
For those Marines who took option B, quitting. I understand that a few of you could not go on but for the majority of you I am not sure what your excuse is. I heard a large range of reasons; my ride is leaving, it is not safe, was there a ORM worksheet done. I want to file a complaint, I’m not a nature person, this sucks. Last time I checked we are all United States Marines and those reasons do not cut it. I am a very easygoing mellow guy who rarely gets upset. I have to say without a doubt this is the most disappointed I have been with Marines in my 5 year career. The purpose of this hike was to challenge yourselves and build camaraderie with your fellow Marines. The last thing I expected was to see more the half of the Marines to turn around and quit. Not only did you turn around but also I heard that some of you wanted to file a compliant. If you feel like you really need to, request Mast. GySgt C, SSgt W, SSgt G, and I completed this hike three weeks ago. We did an ORM worksheet and all came to the conclusion that the hike would be a gut check but most all of the Marines could finish.
The hike showed me what Marines in this company were made of. I thought I knew most of you pretty well but as it turns out I didn’t. You were on a hike in Hawaii with your fellow Marines. You were not at work. You were not TAD, and biggest of all you were not in Iraq. You were complaining about a little adversity on your day off. What will you do when you are in Iraq and the same situation presents itself? Are you going to run to the Platoon Sergeant and let him know that you don’t think the situation is safe and you would like to file a complaint? Please do and let me know what he says. Yesterday was a test and to me most of you not only failed me but you failed yourself. You want to lead Marines and have more responsibility but from what I saw yesterday I would not want to have most of you in Iraq with me. For those whose time is coming up to re-enlist you seriously need to think if you have what it takes to be a Marine. And for those who just re-enlisted or have a few years left you need to take a hare look at yourself and make some changes or else you will fall short of what a United States Marine is.

Captain Eber*****

===============================


From: De***, Aly**
Sent: Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006
To: Eber*****, B*** H Capt
Subject: Hike

Cpt Eber*****

I just wanted to thank you for giving me the opportunity to finish the hike with you and my fellow Marines. To be completely honest, I had no intention on going on the hike in the first place because I had worked Sunday night and was getting off just as the company was forming up to go. I’m so glad I changed my mind. Once we got the half way point I knew it just wouldn’t be right to stop there, plus SSgt W told me I would “puss out,” so of course I had to prove him wrong. I thought the best part was on one of the last resting spots, where we had all crammed in one little circle and you were standing there feeding us Gummy Bears and Jolly Ranchers. I felt proud and grateful to be part of that. It’s such a great experience to look back, especially when I don’t get to work with Marines everyday. Thank you again.

PFC De***

===============================


From: Eber*****, B*** H Capt
Sent: Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006
To: De***, Aly**
Subject: Hike

Thanks for taking the time to say that, it means a lot. I had begun to lose faith in the Marines but by you saying this it has made my day.
You should feel proud, you accomplished what more than 80% of your fellow Marines could not and I was happy to see that you choose to go on. You set an example for other Marines to follow. I was proud to have you make it.

Cpt Eber*****

===============================


Now Wade, just where does that fit in with your “women are still women marines” flatulence?

By my read that is 1 Captain, 5 Sergeants, 3 Corporals, 5 Lance Corporals and 1 PFC, apparently 20% of what ever portion of this Company started out on what apparently was a fairly arduous “hump” that completed it. An 80% fallout from apparent “leadership candidates.” And who was the PFC proud to have had the opportunity to participate in and complete this exercise? My daughter, a Marine, not a “woman marine.” A Marine who had just come off of a 12 hour watch. A Marine that not only has to overcome what every other Marine is supposed to overcome, but who additionally has to put up with and overcome attitudes like yours.

W

Wow! Are there some thin-skins out there or what?!?!

I'll focus my reply with regards to the comments of "Major Mom". Where did ANYONE in this post say that women should not serve? Where did I, or anyone else, denigrate the contribution or service of our women in the U.S. Armed Forces? I truly hope that much of the comments directed at those of us who don't subscribe to unnecessarily placing women in direct combat roles, i.e., infantry, are good-natured in spirit. If they are not, you are way off base.

Obviously, I have never given birth to a child since I am a man. And no, I have not wandered the streets late a night looking for a child to bring home; which begs the question, what the hell are they out at night for to begin with?! Sorry for your marital and financial hardships; being a single parent is a tough job and I wish you and your children the best.

That's where my sympathy ends because for you to compare child rearing to infantry life and combat is ridiculous. I'll say it, a mother who has raised children is NOT a "battle-hardened vet". If you seriously think that the two endeavors are similar you are truly diluted.

Why on earth would you "call me out" and say you can kick my ass. As my father used to say, "Smile when you say that so I know that you are kidding". If you are a Major (O4) in the U.S. military you show remarkably poor judgement. Either you are 15 years old or are incredibly impressed with yourself. Again, if I have taken your comments out of context I apologize. Perhaps it is I who has the thin skin. If I have properly interpreted your meaning, well, you need to pull some maintenance on your headgear.

One more thing; to all of you who duck the issue with examples of women who were at or near the front lines in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc,. I never said that women should not be able to serve. My point has always been focused on the argument of making the conscious decision to place women in line units like infantry. Again, I never denigrated the valuable service of American women throughout our history; don't confuse the issue.

Man! I hope I didn't get sucked into a playground fight with a girl! :)

Happy New year, Major.


Semper Fi
W

Esoterik

W, W, W…

Now who has got their panties all bunched up in a wad? - LOL
No body “called you out.” I don’t wish to speak for her, but I didn’t read any “threat” into Major Moms conclusion. She simply stated in generic terms her capabilities. I am sure she has no desire to “kick your ass” anymore then she would want to see you wounded to “heal your wounds” or see you dieing to “hold your hand with compassion until you die.”
You might want to consider “Standing the F*** By!”

As for your question: “Where did I, or anyone else, denigrate the contribution or service of our women in the U.S. Armed Forces?”
I haven’t seen that anyone here has claimed that you did. However, the comment made by Wade (who ever he is) of “women are still woman marines …. quesion mark after woman marine,” was denigrating and insulting.
The very kind of denigration and insult that women in the military are forced to deal with daily.
It’s just inexcusable crap.
The same crap my Marine had to put up with during a portion of her training at Corey Station, where because she was a Marine and not Navy or Air Force, she was constantly a target for backhanded comments, largely from Soldiers. One such Soldier had the temerity to say within her earshot, “Oh, look at that, a little girl Marine.” This Soldiers day did not improve from that point. The embarrassment he suffered will stay with him to the end of his days and The Corps was not dishonored.

Now on to some of the things that you did say:

You allude to physiological differences between men and women, with a vague reference to the “back-breaking grind that is best performed by a man between the ages of 17 to 35,” (I don’t think you can come up with any scientific support of that by the way), “I have yet to see the "average" woman that can perform the physical tasks required of combat operations that an average man can perform..,” again, vague and undefined, and then it is you who “ducks the issue,” by playing the “I think it obvious” card. Why bother to make a straw dog and then not stand him up? Kind of hard to address your points when you don’t truly make any.

But hey, I give it a shot.
Physiological difference #1: Genitalia. I don’t think you believe this is an issue, at least not directly. Neither do I.
Physiological difference #2: Upper body strength. OK. You got me there. At least on average. However, I am not convinced that this particular difference achieves any great advantage to the male of the species in a combat environment.
Physiological difference #3: Endurance, particularly under physical duress. Let’s keep this to average people, since you brought “average” up. All things equal, on average, there are certain conditions under which women are far better equipped for this then males, both physically and psychologically. Conditions which are often found in combat environments. Extremes in temperature, sleep depravation, pain, all coupled together with extreme physical effort and the psychological effect of uncertainty of outcome. You may not know it, but women are designed to be adaptive to just those conditions.

I am not willing to continue to run all over the map here, you need to specify just what you have in mind. If it is a discussion you really want to have, then you are going to have to toss your dog into the ring.

You want to talk about “serious social issues.” I can see that. But your example of pregnancy is rather overblown. A woman in a combat unit is supposed to be taking measures to prevent that. You do know that don’t you? And if she is not, there is a bigger problem called discipline. And that is a problem that is certainly not exclusive to women, quite often with physical repercussions resulting in the same hornet’s nest of issues. So what exactly is your point?

Anyway, if you seriously want to present and discuss actual points, put them out there, I’ll oblige.

W

Esoterik,

"I am a Service Woman and can kick the crap out of you"...

What do you call that? I'm neither threatened or offended by her comment. I merely found it astonishing that she would make such a childish comment (as a commissioned officer of the U.S. military) without clarifying that it was tongue-in-cheek.

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. We are talking in circles; you don't see what I'm trying to say and I know where you are headed. Bottom line, we're at loggerheads.


Endurance? Fact; men have substantially greater lung capacity than women. Yes, men have greater upper body strength. Women have a larger percentage of their body mass that is made up of fat. Yes, some studies have shown that women can have a higher tolerance for pain. You do your homework and I'll do mine, and perhaps we will both benefit by learning something new. I could tell you numerous stories of either pre-deployment pregnancies and mid-deployment pregnancies, and trust me, it's not a lack of discipline on the unit commander's part. Never forget that the women has the final say when it comes to sexual relations. If it still continues after that then it's called rape; hang the bastard!

No matter how I say it, I will come across as patronizing and chauvinistic, but there is plenty of empirical data from studies showing the advantages and disadvantages of each gender. When it comes to this topic, I will stand by my "generalizations". Your experience influence your stance just as my experience influence mine. Sorry, but I simply won't drink the kool-aid on this issue.

I have tired of this topic. This topic is almost as emotional as the dreaded "A" topic (abortion). It seems to be based on pure emotion.

Have a safe and prosperous New Year. Best of luck to you and yours in 2007.

Semper Fi
W

Karen I.

W. I have no doubts that Major Mom can kick the crap out of you.That wasn't a childish comment, just a fact. You obviously don't get it.

Esoterik

W-

Dude,
You were the one that said you wanted to discuss this thing, “I look forward to more thought provoking discussions,” and now you want to back peddle? With a lame “I have tired of this topic?” OK. No prob.

But just a few things in passing:
I am likely just as patronizing and chauvinistic as you seem to think you may come across. That is a result of our culture, and in my mind, there is absolutely nothing wrong with our culture and I resent the various pressures out there to ram a change down our collective throats.

Yes, there is empirical data showing various advantages and disadvantages to each sex in given circumstances. There is empirical data showing various advantages of a 250lb, 6’4”, 15% body fat naturally athletic man over a 145lb, 5” 7”, 30% body fat, two left footed man, but they both may be required to perform equally in combat. In fact, they are required to. But the 145lb dude isn’t excluded form the “front line,” is he.

Substantially greater lung capacity? OK. Let me see, way back in time, when I was a young snake eating lad, my morning routine was 3 to 4 thousands meters open water, then 8 consecutive 6 minute miles, a very light energy meal, then back in the water for another 5 to 6 thousand meters. All this before noon. My favorite work out partners at the time? Women. I was rather partial to athletic women and I don’t need to get into the reasons why. Lung capacity? I would love to see any active military boot other then a SEAL fill that bill. Point being, women ain’t no slouches. They can be very tough, resilient creatures.

Your complaint of pre-deployment, mid-deployment and I would presume post-deployment pregnancies? Like I said, that is a discipline problem. Not the commander’s. I didn’t say anything of the kind. That is a discipline problem of the Soldier, Marine, Airman, what ever. And yes, I will say it, there are some “hood rats” out there. They don’t belong. Neither do those personnel with a weakness for alcohol, drugs or driving too fast.

Let me just get this out there. I could be very wrong, but in my mind, some of the truly important things in combat are, situational awareness under duress, the ability to identify and exploit cover, the ability to instantaneously switch on ruthless intent, the ability to understand and respond to direction under extreme duress, just to mention a few. None of these things have anything to do with physiology.

In my mind, when the shit hits the fan, I will take adrenaline over testosterone any day.

I have had this discussion with all kinds of guys. They always bring up the physical aspect, which is nothing but pretense at best. What it always ends up boiling down to in reality; what they really think, is that when the shit hits the fan, when the bullets are flying, when the buddy next to them is suddenly missing their head, when there is another buddy suddenly laying in the mud and blood 5 feet away missing a leg and screaming at the top of their lungs; it is then, that the weaker of the sexes, the woman, is going to fall apart. She won’t be able to take it. At least, that has been what I have been able to dig down to in most every case. Well… that is just Bravo Sierra. I have never seen empirical data that would support that opinion. I have witnessed plenty of actions that would refute it.

I don’t find this to be as much of an emotional topic as I do a pragmatic one. And from a pragmatic stance, I am in agreement with you. I don’t think from a cultural perspective, we need to put our women on the tip of the spear. However, if my daughter says she has my six. Then my six is secured.

brat

I don't feel the need to rehash or address any of the "issues" raised here. BUT my two cents worth? The analogy of motherhood holds true in my experience. A woman who has gone through motherhood is a tiger when any of her 'litter' are threatened. Stamina etc etc? Physical strength? And on and on....Obviously, (well to me anyway....lol) you don't need physical strength to pull a trigger or..) Tenacity? Judgement?

I may NOT have been in the actual trenches (no I am not a trained military person) but seems to me that in a combat situation, NO ONE has time to care what chromosomes you the person next to you has...given the training all troops get through, isnt it obvious that by the time our soldiers are in the sandbox they are ALL up for the task, regardless of gender? To say otherwise is to denigrate EVERYTHING our military IS!

Historically? In WW2 many women gave all as fighters in Europe against tyranny. The rolls of honour in Britain (since I know something about them!) are full with women who joined and paid with their lives. Just as now, those women were far too busy serving in any way they could to spend time arguing with men who just didn't 'get' it.

Lastly? - I may not be trained in arm combat BUT I am confident I could kick any man's ass if that was required to save my own life. And yes - I HAVE been there done that. I am just sad that I am too old to be signing up to serve in a combat role now on the front lines with the troops. MY respect for the women who CHOOSE to serve knows no bounds....

Karen I.

Brat, I understand your frustration about not being able to join up. I deal with it by supporting the troops via anysoldier.com or anymarine.com. You can pick out females to support if you want, and it really makes you feel better.I've been supporting both females and males with packages, postcards, thankyou cards, letters- whatever I can afford at the time. I support the males, too, because they are our brothers, sons, cousins, etc. just like the females are our female equivalents. Many serviceman respect their female colleagues so I support as many as I can regardless of gender. Just cuz I don't qualify to be a troop doesn't mean I can't serve my country. I am serving my country by supporting the troops to the best of my ability, and I feel very good about it and less apolegetic about not qualifying.I encourage everyone to do so as well and salute the troops at 23:00 with Big Bro Jim, Major P, and others.

chtrbx

I have a female Marine contact,through anymarine.com and she is in the PRP DET...she takes care of our fallen heroes...she feels honored to do so.
She respectfully gets them ready for their journey home. She is an awesome Marine...

Rafi

Of the top of my dim-witted head an imaginary example.

IF:

I were a King sitting through many centuries of ennumerable reigns in many lands.., from ancient times till the present, I would always choose the most successful human to defend my life, or my Kingdom, being there has been a prevelance of Kings and Kingdoms.
If it then also follows, I have been choosing men, even though the choice I make is always, the most capable of humans I can get, why through trial and error, of hundreds of millions of dead soldiers, have I continued to prefer men over women, If throughout history, my men and women subjects have come to me insisting in their love to defend my life, they wanted to serve up their lives for me, I would always be happy to let them do so, through the millions of both of their male and female deaths, I would always choose the more successful bringers of victories to me, therefore looking back into the tens of millions of lives lost, defending me, I see little evidence of that.
Being a male, and using Aristototalien logic, why would I choose, the lesser, or loser of two individuals in a situation, to preserve my life, it being more important than my subject soldiers.
The hubris of a trillion dollar technology laden army does not make a female warrior through historical evidence, just as capable a warrior as a male yet.
Here is a overlooked phsycological flaw in the argument perhaps, I am happy to be proven wrong.
The virgin female soldier may be as mentally strong a killer warrior and defender of soverenity and also sovereign territory as a male, wintness the behaviour of girls when the are fighting boys in the school playground in the pre puberty timeframe when both boys and girls are completely personally physchologically sovereign human beings, they have no masters as they do not work for a living or have sexual partners. Also consider the Warrior Vigin Queen Elizabeth of England.
So as she, the female virgin warrior, like the Amazons of old, is as intrinsically sovereign as an unbuggered male is throughout his life. On being penetrated by a male of her choice, which is therefore not rape, she yeilds her individual personal soveregnity in the act of her being penetrated, if she then goes on to being penetrated regularly and so phsychologically losing her sovereignity on each occasion, yet associates this with a successs for herself, as she calls it love and potentially pro-creation, both a good idea to her mind, what does her state of sub-concious logic unshorn of cultural spin, tell her about herself, that, perhaps.., she has had her personal sovereiginty breached and it is a wonderful and desireable thing. and the breach of sovereignity is a wonderful and desireable objective, rather different from a unhappily buggered young male, who sees it as a hostile and undesireable occurrence, like the old British Navy, with its unhappily buggered crews and Officers, when they were boys, never to be repeated by others as they grew older and stronger and especially not any dirty foreigner they lost any battle to and were captured, a possible reaction and basis of their greatest military phsychological success, perhaps an even more acute example: the most famous of all fighting men of ancient history; the Spartans, who had no desire to be buggered by anyone else, let alone the Greek companions his general had billetted with him, and who, mentally must have comprheded the loss of personal sovereignity each time they buggered each other, and re-inforced their unwillingness for anyone else to do it to them, let alone the dirty foreigner, perhaps..rather than the spin of hitory indicating they were mentally similar to modern male homosexuals.
Two,very, very, different points of view and unspoken, sub-concious outlooks, and there are many a heterosexual male who would associate loss of sovereignity of any form, personal or tribal or national, as shameful thing and to be prevented at the cost of even their lives, I could go into it further but let you the readers contemplate the ramifications for yourselves, hubristic fools..., I am happy to be disproven.
As King, what I want is primarily a successful outcome for me the Sovereign, which is victory, and if women have proved over centuries of warfare, they can do that, I would force them into my army everywhere in the world, through the ages, every time with or without their consent; like a scalpel's opinion does not matter, only that it will cut as keenly as directed by the best hands. Their opinion would not count.
Why has this not been the case,as my subjects are equally valuable to saving my, their Sovereign's life. I turn to my, subjects, or people as in a Republic, and say save my life, go and die. the ones who bring me victory are reused and honoured. History is littered throughout the world and cultures with this example of behaviour and Honour.
There is no doubt, there are many strong women as we hear here and at other places and nations, I want six foot five 250 pound mentally and physically Sovereign Caucasian humans, with brains and brawn, who will and endure any hardship and any weather without falling ill, and simultaneously kill more of my enemies, than will my enemies of them. As they seem to be a proven instrument of success through a documented five thousand years of warfare and potentially many thousands more of undocumented time. Please can I have their women too, if I don't have enough of them, the men that is...,
This is where we may have reached in the Caucasian tribe in the world today.
But again I say it is hubris, to claim, a nation, a few hundred years old and employing females only within the last seventy,and as killers in the last fourty, should now begin to claim on a substantially untested time basis, they are as good as the men.

Please go and die by your millions to save, my life, I hope, the hypothesis so far, doesn't puncture the hubris too much..., that magically without proof in rivers of blood,as the men have, or even as my men have, somehow they, the females, through being my champion's wife or daughter and having similar strengths as their fathers or brothers of enduring and killing, more of my enemies, than my enemies of them, are as good as their brothers and fathers.
So based on until now an unproven point, why do I want to primarily choose my Champion's wife or daughter when I have a proven winner, steeped in blood and victories. Does the hubris of my female subject's delusions change my opinion?, not in the slightest, the correct response of the admirably tough females in these earliers posts, of: I can kick your ass etc..., is not that, which is a potentially naive and thoughtless response, even a foolish and hubristic remark, but, perhaps, the correct response, may have been, or could have been, or should have been: Sir, hypothetically, wth great respect, I will, kick your ass, do that to you,and brutalise into cowardice your, family and tribe, you will become, as a family and or a tribe of cowed, cowards or extinct...
Therin lies the timelessness of my timeless reign as Monarch, Ruler, Leader of any people anytime anywhere.
Dear female warrior daughter or sister of an even greater warrior father or brother, Because you can run five hundred miles a day like a man is not enough, at all and the other technical descriptions of close quarter combat again are useful tools, what you are there to do is preserve my life, my will, by killing more of my enemies and cowing the rest, and bringing me victory over your millions of dead bodies, and proving in your rivers of precious blood, without any quibble whatsoever, for all time and every time, what victory-delivering champions of mine you are and simultaneously whilst making sure, there are hundreds of millions of my enemies dead or subdued cowards and ineffectual a threat to me.
Dear and respected female soldier, please go out and bring me victory today and tomorrow... everyday.
I hope this humble hypothesis, gives an illumination of the subject which is upsetting my dear female defenders. Perhaps the theoretial hypothesis make it slightly clearer what makes the victor, which may perhaps be interchangeable with soldier or warrior.

This has been the eternal historical struggle of the four tribes of man, visually; the black, brown, white and yellow but may not be for the future, as who knows what world the future brings other than the constant of time passing...

So go out and bring back Victory from brutal savages, you brave and wonderful male and female warriors of mine.

with a salute to you of "Semper Fidelis"

brat

Karen: I do support our troops - both male and female. :) To me it doesnt matter the gender. They are ALL our troops, men and women. We are all in this together...and I do my bit in a couple of different areas, just as my family (both men and women) have done for centuries. I firmly believe that we each find our place in which we can contribute. :)

Laura, Marine mom from Ohio

Last night I thought a lot about the comments I read here. To Esoterik: thank God for your wonderful daughter! Some women have a determination and drive that will not stop & your daughter has that. If the Marines did not feel she was up to the challenge they would not put her in those type of situations. Enjoy the time with your daughter while she is home as I am enjoying the time with my son while he is on leave. The holidays are so nice when they are home instead of in Iraq like last year. God Bless Our Troops!

Esoterik

Rafi-

WTF!!?

Ummm- Let me put that another way.

WTF!!?

Have you been drinking Sterno or what? That “David Duke” T-shirt you’re wearing might endear you to folks down in some obscure corner of a forgotten parish in Louisiana, but in my back yard in would likely just enhance the chances of a Cheney hunting accident.
You have obviously been “hubristically penetrating” yourself orally so long that your brain is “buggered.” You better check you “psychological sovereign territory.” Something called rational thought may intrude across your borders.
That misogynistic and racist screed has got to be the dumbest thing I have read in quite some time.

Rafi

A mind free to fall out of its skull into the toilet.
My abject apologies to every insulted group, each of whom has and continues to contribute Heroically.
Happy New Year

Sgt. B.

My first inkling for the potential steel that resides in a woman's soul came from learning how Martha Rae was made an honorary Green Beret atfer taking shrapnel during one of her appearancs in Viet Nam...
Since then, there's been that National Guard Sergeant from Kentucky who won the Silver Star (with Combat V), before that was Lori Pestiwa (native American warrior - and a mom to boot), and a thousand others, ladies all, who have more than proved their mettle (one of my favorite pictures involves two Aviation Marines (WMs) curled up, using each other for pillows, sleeping the sleep of the utterly exhausted...)
There might be arguements able females in combat, but they are far above my pay grade... Color me totally impressed and satisfied with the mettle of the female war-fighter.

iris

DEAD FOR USA !!! FREEDOM FOR THE WORLD !!!!

AMERICAN SOLDIERS ARE BLOODY KILLERS OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN !!! LOOK AT HADITHA (THE BIG MASSACRE);LOOK AT ABU GHURAIB !!!! WHAT A SHAME !!!

AMERICAN SOLDIERS RAPE LITTLE GIRLS AND WOMEN EVERY DAY !!!IN ABU GHURAIB IS A IRAQI WOMAN RAPED BY FOUR AMERICAN JAILERS !!!!!WHAT A SHAME !!!!!!

USA LOST THEIR FACE !!! EUROPE HATE THE AMERICANS !!!AND THE WORLD TOO !!!

AND LOOK AT THE LITTLE DEAD IRAQI GIRL___RAPED AND KILLED BY FOUR AMERICAN SOLDIERS !!!!!

PFUIIIIIII !!!!!!!

I HOPE A LOT OF AMERICAN SOLDIERS DIE IN IRAQ

Rusty

The comment made about women becoming pregnant in the Marines and causing hell brought down my respect for you, I understand and respect completely the way you feel about women in the FRONT lines. I am a young lady wishing to join infantry after college I am interested in the views of others against and for women in the infantry. I respect all comments but saying that women becoming pregnant in the marines is assuming that not only are they incapable of performing tasks that men can? but they are sexual addicts as well? We both know women and men can control themselves and like was said earlier it is a matter of self discipline. If a woman wants respect in the marines (which is difficult to obtain) they would probably be intelligent enough to control themselves. Just opinion have a great day.

nat Helms

Hi,

Nat Helms here, a feature writer for Soldier of Fortune Magazine. I am doing a story on the Lioness program for an upcoming issue... I got a lot of background from an active duty 1st Sgt who doesn't want to go on the record. I need both anecdotal and personal stories to flesh out the piece but do not know the appropriate protocol for doing so because of the fluid nature of the participants. I am hoping someone reading this may be able to help me. I am reluctant to ask active duty Marines because of their vulnerability to harassment.

I am the author of "My Men Are My Heroes: The Brad Kasal Story" coming out from Meredith Books May 1. This story will be in a similar, although much shorter vein. My aim is to illuminate and honor the Lioness Marines by tell a story of their bravery, duty and sacrifice. Also I really nedd a verticle pic in high resolution of a Lioness for the cover. If you got any ideas I would appreciate it.

I hope to hear from someone soon.

Thanks, stay safe,
Nat Helms
Saint Charles, MO
314 368-0079

Jeromy

Hey
Jeromy here, I just want to say first of all that I have no problem with women being in the military, and personally I do not think that that is the point. I have read quite a few of these passages and while they do have some facts in them they fail to state the main reason why the women sould not be on the front line.
Men have always been seen as the protector of the family and most men feel that same way about those women that they do not know. When men see women in on the same font line that they are on they do not see just another soldier they see some one that they will eventually have to protect. What I mean is that men are more willing to take the bullet for a woman than they are foe a man. Not only do they cause men to become the protectors instead of the fighters they also cause a distraction. Imagine this, You have a whole platoon full of testosterogne filled men who are also having a shot of adrenalin put through their blood stream fom fighting and then they see a women on the line that is not to bad looking. You do the math.

Now I know what you are thinking. You think that I am just being a jerk and I do not really know what I am talking aboutbecause all of the women are wearinf full body uniforms and they have a helmet to hide their face but those that are in the same platoon with her know who it is.

The bottom line is that although I do no have problem with them being in the military I do however have a problem with them serving on the frontline with the men toey are to much a distraction to the soldiers and it can make men do some pretty crasy crap to save that women's life. That is my veiw on it.

Mike Tennyson

My daughter Sarah is a Sgt in the USMC and has been in Iraq since Feb 2007. She just re-enlisted today and volunteered for the Lioness program. She is every bit a Warrior as any man, and probably more so than some men. I am very proud of her and all our Marines fighting the Global War on Terrorism.

On a new page, the US Military has the ability to protect the US without the loss of any US soldier. We could turn the entire Middle East into blasted rubble or a sheet of glass. Instead, we lose precious American blood, the blood of our finest young men and women in order to save Iraqi and Afgani lives. It is this heroic sacrifice that makes America great. I have no doubt that if Al Quaeda possessed the same power of destruction the USA has they would not hesitate to use it. This only shows that it is they you are weak and the cowards. America is great because we do not use the totality of our destructive power but want to save innocent lives. Witness how our mortal enemies of WWII, Germany and Japan our now strong allies and strong democracies. This will also happen to Iraq. People who say that it cannot happen are racists and bigots.

The majority of Muslims do not support Al Quaeda or any other militant terrorist group. They have hijacked the religion of peace and turned it into the religion of mass murder. I have no doubt that any of their followers, especially those who carry out atrocities against innocent civilians will burn in HELL forever!

If they want to die martyrs for their twisted ideology the US Marine Corps will be glad to oblige them!

God Bless America and all our Marines everywhere!

Semper Fi

Mike Tennyson
Palm Coast, FL

Tales from the Dark Side

Ok, so I was doing research on the Lioness Program for my Thesis, and came across this site. I read nearly each and every word (except for the wacko - that guy sounded like Ghadaffi bragging about his bodyguard of virgin amazons). I really feel the need to make a comment. I usually don't speak out - but I think some folks out there need an education.

Here's the deal - yes there are a lot of people that think women should not be allowed in combat for various reasons...we've heard them go on and on about what they "think". Well, that's what they get for thinkin!

Let me shed some light on a few things - yes, we know there's a piece of paper that says women aren't "allowed" on the front lines...but where is that piece of paper? Yep - D.C. - filed in a cabinet somewhere where my CO can't see it. Where a lot of COs can't see it, choose not to see it, and don't really give a $# about what it says. There are people in this world that recognize it for the John Wayne Toilet Paper it is and go about their business.

What does this have to do with the above conversations?

Here's the bottom line - regardless of whether you like it or not, regardless of whether you think it is "socially acceptable", and regardless of whether or not you think women are physiologically and psychologically capable of ground combat - THEY HAVE BEEN DOING IT RIGHT UNDER YOUR NOSES FOR YEARS!!!

Women have served in America's trenches for the last 220+ years. And yes, there are documents to prove it, if you know what to look for and read between the lines. Library of Congress, go check it out one day. Women have served behind enemy lines in some form or fashion in EVERY wartime evolution the U.S. has participated in, foreign and domestic. It may have been in secret, it may have been forgotten, it may have been an accident, or it may have been that they were just in the right place at the right time - but that doesn't negate the fact that they did it. And it doesn't negate the fact that they did it well enough to be recognized by the very government that said they were both physically and mentally incapable of such feat. Pfft. Yeah - Multiple Silver Stars, Bronze Stars, Navy Crosses, Legion of Merits and one Medal of Honor say otherwise! And don't give me the BS about them ONLY being nursemaids and women with pitchers.of water..I'm talking about blood, guts and bayonets. They cut their hair and carried rifles in the Civil War, they put on pants and parachuted into Germany, they crawled through the jungles of VietNam, they took down Oil Platforms in Desert Storm - and guess what - they are kickin in doors as we speak in Iraq today. I've been in the Navy just over 10 years - and in the last few I have been LOTS of places I technically was not allowed. It just so happens that we do all look the same under 50lbs of flak, ammo, and weapons. The fact that I could do my job better than any man in the room negated the fact that the only balls I have are brass. I was the only female in a unit of 70 of the most rough and tumble SOBs you'll ever meet, men that would not be at home with their families right now, were it not for me doing my job to the best of my abilities.

I know for a fact they laid bets on the first day as to whether or not I could even pick up my ruck. As someone stated before - cammi's hide a lot. They didn't know I scored a 270 on THEIR version of the pft - all they was was a 5'2" chick next to a 60lb ruck. So, when I threw the strap over my shoulder and started up the ramp without a backward look, that was the first of many cool points I would score. I'm not saying these things to toot my own horn - I'm just saying I was one of MANY doing the same exact thing, doing the job as well or better than their male peers.

I have one word for the naysayers touting size, speed, strength, etc. CONDITIONING. Upper body strength? Conditioning.(Have you ever seen what a woman gymnast can do with one arm? Google Kerri Strug). Running? Conditioning. (Google Brandi Chastain) Lung capacity? Conditioning. (Women's Boxing, MMA, swimming) The mental and physical stamina to push through the pain, suck it up and drive on? Conditioning. (If you're sick of the pregnancy example - which IS perfectly valid - like I said earlier - google Kerri Strug in the 1996 Olympics)

I could go on and on. The point is, average women - physically Can do just as well as men with the right conditioning. And don't try to pull the height and reach card here - have you ever seen a real Navy SEAL? The average is 5'4 - 5'8...yeah seriously. They can do what they do because they Condition themselves, they have the intestinal fortitude - and they're a little bit crazy. There is not a doubt in my mind, that there are women in this world that could match them toe to toe - with the SAME training. That's the key. No double standard crap. Do not lower the bar, just let them rise to meet the challenge.

The Aussies have women on subs, the Polish have women in the GROM...you wanna talk about intestinal fortitude. Those women are AWESOME!! But that is because their government recognizes the contribution they are able to make to the team - and gives them the Freedom To Choose!! Speaking of Choice - here is one little piece of trivia that many people fail to recognize - the women of this country have always been the ONLY TRUE all volunteer military! Draft dodgers were fleeing to College, Canada and points unknown - at the same time over 7,000 women were in the jungles of South East Asia - voluntarily. All men are required to enroll in the selective service at 18, - and you can hear the crying, kicking and screaming from CA to FL, every time someone mentions the draft...women aren't drafted - Never Have been - they just show up! That right there should count for a lot in the "intestinal fortitude" department.

First we were to fragile, tell that to the women that crossed the plains and built log cabins with their bare hands (while pregnant); then we were too stupid, tell that to the number of women holding Fortune 500 companies; then they said we'd get pregnant, so we took the pill; then they said our periods would scare people and be such an "inconvenience", so we took the shot; then they they bitched that they couldn't wait for us to "cop a squat", so we invented the Lady J(I could kiss the woman that dreamed that one up); then we weren't ruthless enough, tell that to every woman that holds a place on capitol hill; then they said we just wouldn't have the killer instinct, hmmm - it's a crazy thing adrenaline.

We've petty much managed to Punk every excuse they've thrown at us in the last 200 years. The last thing they could throw out there was that in the end we weren't battle tested. They said we talked a good game, but there was no way would actually "hold up in the heat of battle"....Yeah...did I mention WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam? Oh, and now there's GWOT.

well, now what? 2 of every 10 pairs of boots on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan belong to a female. In 2004, they tried to force the leadership to send us all back to the rear with the gear - It was a good thing someone figured out how stupid THAT idea was. Three years later we are battle tested - and "not found wanting", with the correct documentation and pictures to prove it. Now what?

Thank you for allowing me to put in my own 2 cents.

V/R,
The Short Angry Yelling Machine

Kaitlin

As a senoir i've been wondering what i should do with my life. I've just decided to join the Marines. Thank-you for saying what you did Maj. Others would have just agreed or said noting, but because you said something you made a differnce for all us girls serving and those getting ready to serve.

Grant

I just joined the USMC myself and I have met a few Marine women. They are hardcore as the rest and as nice as you'd hope for. For me I will find it an honor to serve with my USMC sisters. Semper Fi Marines! OOH-RAH!!!!

DeannREID

It's well known that money makes us disembarrass. But how to act if someone does not have money? The only one way is to get the loan or bank loan.

Plan My Baby Review

Thanks for finally writing about >One Marine's View: Women fighting in the war on terrorism

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    These views, opinions and ideas are my own and do not represent those of the US Marines, Department of Defense, or any Government organization. I usually think about this stuff when I'm running or suffering from stress or lack of sleep. You can torture me, kill me but just don't bore me "All original material copyright © by Maj Pain, 2004-2013. All rights reserved. No content may be reproduced in whole or in part without express permission."